Curse

seut · Oct 12, 2006, 03:10 PM // 15:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

LOL. The "this will ruin the economy for 15k armor" argument has been brought up many times, I'm glad you agree it's a poor one.

People ridiculing the concerns of other players makes you happy?
Not taking arguments of other concerned players seriously and laughing at them is very bad style.

(edit: joined two answers)

Mordakai · Oct 12, 2006, 03:23 PM // 15:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by seut

Thank you for calling me an uneducated moron..

Now valuable imperfect items like req.10 with 14^50 will become valueless. Other items which are worthless now will rise in price, but with a much higher supply, because now merched blank whites or items with unwanted modifiers (19v50, 15vsHexed, etc) will flood the market. I'll doubt the demand will rise that high to compensate the market saturation.

In this scenario with less valuable average drops fixed price items like 15k armor will be harder to achive.

I'm going to call my university to invalidate my diploma which included a year of economics...

Two points: I'm living proof you don't need to trade anything to earn 100,000. Yes, it took me a year, but then again, I have less than 500 hours playing time. That's a horrible 200 gold per hour avg. I don't think anyone can do less than that, unless they are actively trying NOT to make money. If I can get 15k armor, anyone can!

(BTW, my Cantha character has a much better rate: He made 1,000 gold per hour just by going through the missions. I think the hours spent in pre-searing sucked my G.P.H. (Gold Per Hour) avg. way down!

)

Point 2: You yourself admit you don't know what will happen. Max Req 7 skins (despite mods) could actually go up in value. Maybe Anet will introduce new, super-rare skins. It's all guesswork right now.

seut · Oct 12, 2006, 03:35 PM // 15:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

Two points: I'm living proof you don't need to trade anything to earn 100,000. Yes, it took me a year, but then again, I have less than 500 hours playing time. That's a horrible 200 gold per hour avg. I don't think anyone can do less than that, unless they are actively trying NOT to make money. If I can get 15k armor, anyone can!

Doing all missions & quests and capping all elite skills for a profession takes 60-80hours play time for each campaign. Additional 400hours to get 15k armor isn't considered grind?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

Point 2: You yourself admit you don't know what will happen. Max Req 7 skins (despite mods) could actually go up in value. Maybe Anet will introduce new, super-rare skins. It's all guesswork right now.

Yes, we all don't know what will happen. That's why i don't understand the reasoning of many pro-inscriptionists that the change will be all-out good for casual players (btw. none of us posting here is part of that group).
This thread reminds me of the serious concerns against the access to Elite Mission concept in GW:F. Most arguments were wiped away with the statement ''Anet knows what they are doing". Sorry, i don't have blind faith.

Mordakai · Oct 12, 2006, 03:51 PM // 15:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by seut

Doing all missions & quests and capping all elite skills for a profession takes 60-80hours play time for each campaign. Additional 400hours to get 15k armor isn't considered grind?

Only if the sole purpose of such activity was to get said armor.

In my case, it was the opposite. I played the game, made 100,000 gold, and wanted to buy something. I chose 15k armor. I did not "grind" for one piece of that gold. (As for my 500 hours, I've deleted several characters, played a little PvP, and I don't know what else. Time flies when you're having fun!)

Oh, and I wanted to apologize for the "LOL". That was directed at Yawgmoth, who basically said I had a poor choice of arguments, when all I was doing was repeating others. It was not directed at you.

Although I do think your argument is flawed, I don't think you're stupid. We can disagree, and still be amicable, I hope.

Sid Soggybottom · Oct 12, 2006, 04:24 PM // 16:24

It's funny to see the anti-inscriptionists trying to turn this around to say that the people who are for inscriptions are being selfish and only want to benefit themselves.

Even IF that were true, it's still a salvage system that will benefit ALL. Currently, the rich traders want the system to stay the way it is because it ONLY benefits a small percentage of the population, and it just so happens that those who are opposed to inscriptions fall into that small percentage.

Basically what pro-inscriptionists want, still benefits everyone, regardless of the motive.

What the anti-inscriptionists want is the status quo that only a small few should have what the "elite" have.

So please tell me again who is being selfish and only looking out for themselves here?

Abnaxus · Oct 12, 2006, 04:37 PM // 16:37

I'm wondering what would have happened if the inherent mod salvaging system had been present in GW since its first release.

I'd actually like to know if players who are now against inscriptions would have left the game one month after release, saying they had no interest in a game where there was the possibility to craft every item choosing skin, inherent modifiers, prefix and suffix.

Would GW have had no economy at all if this feature had been always in the game? This sounds quite absurd to me.

Some players see it a huge and devastating feature, now that everybody is used to the current crafting system, which is very poor and limited.

Let's imagine what would have happened if A.net had decided that not only inherent mods were unmodifiable, but also prefixes and suffixes, so that if you wanted a req. 8 15>50 20/20 +30hp fellblade you had to wait that a monster somewhere in the world actually dropped that very item.
Instead of being worth 200-250k, an item like that would have be worth 200-250 million, or simply would have been priceless.

Everything is relative, also in GW.

Game designers made a choice - one amongst several possible ones - to give to some items 2 grades of freedom (sry if this is just a literal translation of a technical term from my language) which are prefix and suffix.

Just think out of the box. This is a game designer's choice, they could have given 1) no possibility at all to modify an item, as well as 2) the possibility to modify the so called inherent mod, as well as 3) the possibility to modify the requirement, as well as 4) the possibility to modify even the damage.

Those who say that pro-inscriptionists are "A.net yes boys" should watch at themselves and realize that at the moment THEY are the yes boys, because they take a single game designer's choice, one among several possible choices, as the ONLY possible choice, as something which constitutes the foundation of the whole game economy, which seems all centered around the fact that inherent mods are unmodifiable.

seut · Oct 12, 2006, 04:41 PM // 16:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sid Soggybottom

What the anti-inscriptionists want is the status quo that only a small few should have what the "elite" have.

So please tell me again who is being selfish and only looking out for themselves here?

I use one rare item i found myself (a drop not from a chest while helping with Tannakei Temple) on my 6pve chars and i'm thinking that the new system, although people (probably a majority) will benefit, will also have harmful effects for some.
I'm against inscriptions, if they only work for weapons (and the PCGamer article only mentioned weapons, if i remember correctly).
I care about this topic, because i'm a guild leader and most of the members are casual 3nights a week player.
Please don't lump together the arguments opposite to your view to make them easier to attack for you.

Mordakai · Oct 12, 2006, 04:49 PM // 16:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by seut

Yes, we all don't know what will happen. That's why i don't understand the reasoning of many pro-inscriptionists that the change will be all-out good for casual players (btw. none of us posting here is part of that group).
This thread reminds me of the serious concerns against the access to Elite Mission concept in GW:F. Most arguments were wiped away with the statement ''Anet knows what they are doing". Sorry, i don't have blind faith.

Well, at least we agree the Elite mission idea was very, very bad (or, perhaps, a good idea gone terribly wrong). On the plus side, Anet listened, and the Nightfall Elite mish will be available to all who reach it.

Now, as for whether I'm "casual" or not: I'm all for defining terms, so what would you call a casual player (hours per night played), and I'll tell you if I meet your criteria or not.

I think defining "hardcore" would be beneficial as well to the discussion.

Tijger · Oct 12, 2006, 05:05 PM // 17:05

For those who dont get it, Anet is a business and therefore making the game more attractive for casual players is a win/win proposition for them. All the rest is kinda irrelevant and imho, thats how it should be.

Buying a game doesnt give you the right the decide how it should develop, if Anet wants to attract more casual gamers then you can either live with that or leave.

Abnaxus · Oct 12, 2006, 05:07 PM // 17:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by seut

This thread reminds me of the serious concerns against the access to Elite Mission concept in GW:F. Most arguments were wiped away with the statement ''Anet knows what they are doing". Sorry, i don't have blind faith.

This is a good point, especially for pro-inscriptionist.

With Elite Missions, A.net made a bad game design choice, because for the first time they limited the access to some end game areas to players belonging to a so called "elite" of players, those belonging to an alliance of "elite factions farmers".

The severe mistake was partially mitigated by the "taxy" system, but despite this many hardcore players I know have no interest in elite missions and continue to play UW, FoW, SF, ToPK since they are not willing to beg for an access to someone they don't know who on earth is, and has the only prerogative to belong to a faction grinders group.

Hopefully they've learned the lesson and realized that any elitism in game is dangerous for the game itself.

seut · Oct 12, 2006, 05:08 PM // 17:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

Now, as for whether I'm "casual" or not: I'm all for defining terms, so what would you call a casual player (hours per night played), and I'll tell you if I meet your criteria or not.

Using a medium other than the game itself like a chat or this forum to talk about the game ends the casualness in my perception. (yes, posting here disqualifies you as a casual player in my view

)

Mordakai · Oct 12, 2006, 05:20 PM // 17:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abnaxus

This is a good point, especially for pro-inscriptionist.

With Elite Missions, A.net made a bad game design choice, because for the first time they limited the access to some end game areas to players belonging to a so called "elite" of players, those belonging to an alliance of "elite factions farmers".

The severe mistake was partially mitigated by the "taxy" system, but despite this many hardcore players I know have no interest in elite missions and continue to play UW, FoW, SF, ToPK since they are not willing to beg for an access to someone they don't know who on earth is, and has the only prerogative to belong to a faction grinders group.

Hopefully they've learned the lesson and realized that any elitism in game is dangerous for the game itself.

Hmm, interesting take. However, i don't think any Elitism is bad, as long as it has no effect on the game per se. (15k armor, FoW armor are prime examples).

The problem with Inscriptions is it effect two things:

One is Inherent Mods, which I think most agree are NOT vanity, and should be available to all.

The other is Rare Skins, which some people think of as the equivalent of FoW armor, and has no game effect whatsoever.

These ideas sound good to me:

Include Inscriptions, but also include FoW Items for the "hardcore" player to strive for.

Limitations on Inscriptions like customization of Inscribed items, color change, etc., to keep value of vanity items.

In short, I really don't care what concessions Anet makes to keep the "Elite" players happy, as long as in the end, Inscriptions deliver in getting rare mods into the hands of casual players.

I also think an Inscriptions Merchant will be required for maximum availability of Inscriptions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by seut

Using a medium other than the game itself like a chat or this forum to talk about the game ends the casualness in my perception. (yes, posting here disqualifies you as a casual player in my view

)

Nice.

Well, in my view, if you play an hour or less a night you are probably "casual" no matter how much time during your day job you spend on Guru.

Of course, as luck would have it, I'm just shy of being casual: 1.09 hours a day playing Guild Wars.

Evls Pwn · Oct 12, 2006, 06:05 PM // 18:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sid Soggybottom

It's funny to see the anti-inscriptionists trying to turn this around to say that the people who are for inscriptions are being selfish and only want to benefit themselves.

Even IF that were true, it's still a salvage system that will benefit ALL. Currently, the rich traders want the system to stay the way it is because it ONLY benefits a small percentage of the population, and it just so happens that those who are opposed to inscriptions fall into that small percentage.

Basically what pro-inscriptionists want, still benefits everyone, regardless of the motive.

What the anti-inscriptionists want is the status quo that only a small few should have what the "elite" have.

So please tell me again who is being selfish and only looking out for themselves here?

Wow, All youv'e really just stated is that you are upset because you can't have your pet crystalline like all the other boys and girls...

Mordakai · Oct 12, 2006, 06:16 PM // 18:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evls Pwn

Wow, All youv'e really just stated is that you are upset because you can't have your pet crystalline like all the other boys and girls...

Uh, no he didn't.

And what's wrong with everyone having a crystalline, anyway? Would it shatter your ego?

Loviatar · Oct 12, 2006, 06:27 PM // 18:27

A BREAK FOR SOMETHING WE ACTUALLY KNOW ABOUT

GUARANTEED SALVAGE

CHOICE OF SALVAGE

DOESNT DAMAGE WEAPON

COMPARE THIS WITH THE RESULTS OF GUARANTEED RUNE SALVAGE

and i got an extra slot for my second PERMANENT PRESEAR character (she likes the scenery)

DeathByAmor · Oct 12, 2006, 06:29 PM // 18:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

Uh, no he didn't.

And what's wrong with everyone having a crystalline, anyway? Would it shatter your ego?

Well if everyone had a Crystalline it would absolutely shatter egos. The thing is that Crystallines will still be rare especially low req gold ones. I just don't see how "everyone" would be running around with Crystallines. As far as changing the color of inscribed items I could care less to be honest, however it would kind of suck that the gold req 8 Crystalline that dropped for me that I use would no longer be gold. Up side is that it will be Req 8 15% Always Unconditional

Mordakai · Oct 12, 2006, 06:40 PM // 18:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

A BREAK FOR SOMETHING WE ACTUALLY KNOW ABOUT

GUARANTEED SALVAGE

CHOICE OF SALVAGE

DOESNT DAMAGE WEAPON

COMPARE THIS WITH THE RESULTS OF GUARANTEED RUNE SALVAGE

I'd like to see anyone argue against guaranteed salvage. I think everyone has been asking for this for awhile now.

The fact is doesn't destroy the weapon is just Gravy...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

and i got an extra slot for my second PERMANENT PRESEAR character (she likes the scenery)

And this is something many people don't understand about us, Loviatar! We'd rather spend a few hours relaxing in pre-searing than farm UW.

Go figure. (I'm planning on making another pre-sear character soon, I deleted her to make room for the Nightfall preview).

Evls Pwn · Oct 12, 2006, 06:56 PM // 18:56

I don't see the problem people have with grinding. I enjoy it. I enjoy doing the UW. It's fun! It's as much a part of the game as anything else is...

winkgood · Oct 12, 2006, 06:58 PM // 18:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sid Soggybottom

It's funny to see the anti-inscriptionists trying to turn this around to say that the people who are for inscriptions are being selfish and only want to benefit themselves.

Even IF that were true, it's still a salvage system that will benefit ALL. Currently, the rich traders want the system to stay the way it is because it ONLY benefits a small percentage of the population, and it just so happens that those who are opposed to inscriptions fall into that small percentage.

Basically what pro-inscriptionists want, still benefits everyone, regardless of the motive.

What the anti-inscriptionists want is the status quo that only a small few should have what the "elite" have.

So please tell me again who is being selfish and only looking out for themselves here?

A prime example of a liberal extremist point of view. I live in a nation where 10% of the population pays 80% of the taxes. Is this fair? According to you it would seem so since the majority are paying far less proportionately and since the majority are happy then everything is just peachy. To me, this is a very selfish point of view. Now to bring this back to the topic at hand.

Pro inscriptionists aren't against other players having rare items. But we are against them coming for free or with ease. This is both unfair to those that have obtained them already and destructive to the economy and the game as it lowers the motivation of players to play the PVE portion of the game beyond the missions.

I'm starting to see a double standard amongst the pro-inscriptionists. Many have said how they want to be able to obtain all skins with any mods and that this is considered "fun" for them. At the same time, the pro-inscriptionists ridicule the anti-inscriptionists for spending time to obtain all the various skins with rare mods. So the end goal is the same for both pro and anti inscriptionists, but the pro-inscriptionists are somehow wrong because they like the idea of putting effort into something. What a lazy attitude. Don't give me the argument about not wanting to "work" in a game. Name a decent video game that doesn't require work to excel and achieve everything in it. Some of you have tried to compare work at a job with work in a game. They aren't the same thing. There are no pressures of getting fired or of not meeting a deadline in a game. If it is work then it is what I consider to be "relaxing work".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

Hmm, interesting take. However, i don't think any Elitism is bad, as long as it has no effect on the game per se. (15k armor, FoW armor are prime examples).

The problem with Inscriptions is it effect two things:

One is Inherent Mods, which I think most agree are NOT vanity, and should be available to all.

The other is Rare Skins, which some people think of as the equivalent of FoW armor, and has no game effect whatsoever.

Your statement above seems to contradict itself. Please explain the difference between armors and weapons. Here's my analysis on them:

-1.5K armor is easily obtainable, has perfect stats, and matching functionality to more expensive armors.
-Collectors weapons and greens have perfect inherent mods, max damage, and matching functionality to the rare, more expensive skins.
-15K and FoW armor. Same stats as the cheaper version. The only difference is looks (in most cases it looks better than 1.5) and as such requires more work to obtain.
-Rare skins with rare damage modifiers. Same stats as the cheaper version. The only difference is looks and as such requires more work to obtain.

i don't think any Elitism is bad, as long as it has no effect on the game <--What effect do different skins have on the game?

One is Inherent Mods, which I think most agree are NOT vanity, and should be available to all. <--They are available to all in the form of collector items and greens.

edit:
I thought I would take the liberty of giving you some helpful links as to where you can get your perfect 15^50 items.
Crafters with 15^50, 15/-10, 15/-5, +5 nrg weapons:
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Sarad
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Manzo
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Honglei_Sun
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Mathilde
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Gertrud
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Theodosus
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Telamon
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Shichiroji
Collectors with them:
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/General...aineng_City%29
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/General...vald_Forest%29
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/General...%28Jade_Sea%29

MSecorsky · Oct 12, 2006, 07:02 PM // 19:02

Inscriptions will allow your regular Joe, like myself, to equip my heroes with top quality weapons cheap by allowing peicemeal mixing and matching. What the "rich" fail to realize is that this doesn't cost them a bloody cent... I wouldn't buy from them in the first place. Probably a minimum of players actually buy items to get them to the upper end of things.

Consider this... pre-inscriptions (now), my necro has a collector Blood staff
(20/20, +5e, +30 health).

Post-inscriptions - he would have had it faster.

This will benefit the vast majority of players the most. This is as it should be.